Hello

[hoopoe]

As a relatively independent subtotality currently unfolded from the implicate order, explicated in the Now as a female human being, focalized in the Pacific Northwest of the US, I've come to chat...

[hoopoe]

As I've been poking about here and there among these threads, i see fascinating topics and conversations many of which have been quiet for months and years. 

I am a bit overwhelmed by the amount there is to read and to understand.  I recognize some terminology, but am still trying to discover if there is really a common vocabulary here, or if this is a process always of defining terms.

It seems to me that we, human beings, are 'points' within Bohm's implicate order-- the vast ocean of Everything, the Big Picture-- that function to unfold whatever we are focusing on.  I'm suggesting that this process of selection, tuned to ever finer distinctions, is our purpose in the Big Picture. That we are  "points of explication,"  though I am not sure whether it is really a purpose towards a goal, or simply a function, that this is what we do, part of the dynamics without any goal but simply continuing to do what comes naturally.

By way of explicating myself a bit, and perhaps as a disclaimer or warning, I have approached this field of interest from the perspective of a question asked when I was 10, being raised by scientists (Dad's an astronomer, mother was, too, but she was also a mystic; My Mom who raised me was a firm believer in the scientifically proven) but craving and believing in God's reality.  (I had no formal religious instruction, just a bit of basic Christianity through a Protestant paradigm.)  The question I asked was, How can God and Science both be true?  I was sure they were, both.

I've been collecting the pieces to that picture ever since, turning the bits this way and that, until they clicked together...  Epiphanies that gave me weeks of high, until they settled in, and it was time to move on to the next bundle of pieces that needed to be fit in. 

I am convinced that everything has its own proper place in The Big Picture, even things we hate and abhor:  If it's here, it has a place.

Having discovered that anyone can say anything, and believe, and teach things that simply are not true (in their proper place) I shied away from books and lectures, and sought to understand by observing and experiencing.  I found wonderful puzzle pieces in single statements in books, or single ideas, or sometimes just in a title. and I explored being psychic, when I realized that door was open to me.  I've read many more people than books on spirituality.

The first book I read-- actually cover-to-cover-- that simply took my breath away, was John Lilly's THE CENTER OF THE CYCLONE.  It was the first confirmation I'd had that someone else was seeing what I saw in the Picture, that this was not just a private playground of my own that no one else would ever understand.  Being young and exhilerated, I wrote Lilly a very, very long letter which never got a response. 

Now, I am re-reading Michael Talbot's THE HOLOGRAPHIC UNIVERSE,  and I am feeling that same exhileration-- and since I can't write to him, but am eager to find people to talk with about this marvelous model of Reality, to compare notes with, I have found my way here.

I have not studied philosophy formally, and am no physicist at all, at all!  So references in those areas are mysterties to me, still enfolded.  I understand a lot that I can't talk about in sophisticated or scholarly terminologies.  I have written a fair amount about it elsewhere...  I feel a bit like a philosophical hick walking into University...  I have things to learn here, and I have things I would like to share.  I don't know if any of it will be new, but at least I can learn what things are called around here, and in the naming of things, discover more about them than I have seen before.

If this make sense to you, I hope you will say hello, and chat with me.

[Carol Massey]

  hello and welcome to you hoopoe.  i don't come here often... only when spirit moves me.  it was a nice surprise to see you here, and read your warm message. i look forward to hearing more of your experiences.

as many of my friends have suggested, and i think it makes perfect sense, very much in accord with your idea, hoopoe, that there is a difference in meaning and purpose.  perhaps i can't discern an absolute purpose in my life, but certainly there is meaning enfolded and unfolded in every evolving moment.  always here, always now, always meaningfully. 

and to another new member whose name i recognize from the old days at the jung forum, remo roth.  just in case you stop by again, hello remo...     

btw, this is a very nice 'new' board.  thank you board god.    i think the smileys don't work.....still.  sad. 

carol

moderator,  would you kindly hide the ISP numbers???  if there is a reason for them to be visible, please inform.  thank you.

 

[hoopoe]

Thanks for your welcome, Carol!  I was beginning to feel that everyone in the playground had transcended, or gone in to lunch, or something...

I did a personal energy reading yesterday with someone in a state of confusion that needed help to get back to her own natural clarity-- gave her information which let her shake off what was not her own energy, and as we worked, it was a delight to watch her brighten and remember her power.

It was also a delight to perceive her with my renewed consciousness of the holographic model.

It's not a bad thing to wake up in a new place-- One can explore and enjoy it even with the vaguest or even no idea at all where it is in relation to anywhere else.  But it is so cool to appreciate it with a map!

[Carol Massey]

  hoopoe, when you said:  "I have not studied philosophy formally, and am no physicist at all, at all!  So references in those areas are mysterties to me, still enfolded.  I understand a lot that I can't talk about in sophisticated or scholarly terminologies.  I have written a fair amount about it elsewhere...  I feel a bit like a philosophical hick walking into University...  I have things to learn here, and I have things I would like to share.  I don't know if any of it will be new, but at least I can learn what things are called around here, and in the naming of things, discover more about them than I have seen before."

i had to feeling of touching a kindred spirit, perhaps a harmonic resonance when two or more are attuned to a particular vibrational energy dynamic...  you see, i, too am lacking a suitable language to communicate this experience to western scientific minds....

nevertheless, i consider it to be nothing less than an inertial guidance system informing me that all is in 'flow' and in those particular times, one simply knows...

more later... i must return to work now. 

[hoopoe]

Carol, the great thing about language is that it is infinitely flexible-- every time we find a new thing to talk about, or need to talk about an old thing in a new way, we can create common language for it. 

Sometimes I think that every conversation that goes beyond schmoozing ought to start with a few moments defining terms.  And jargon should never go out into the world to compete with standard language.  People who speak in jargon as if Everyone Who Is Anyone will understand it, just plain annoy me! 

I agree-- sometimes all we need is to say Hello and share a smile, a wink, a bit of eye-contact, to acknowledge the resonance...  Letting the conversation happen on other levels of consciousness...

[Carol Massey]

hoopoe said:  Carol, the great thing about language is that it is infinitely flexible-- every time we find a new thing to talk about, or need to talk about an old thing in a new way, we can create common language for it.

hoopoe, i would like to hear more about this.  do you mean creation of a common language by consensus, agreement? 

hoopoe said:  "Sometimes I think that every conversation that goes beyond schmoozing ought to start with a few moments defining terms.  And jargon should never go out into the world to compete with standard language.  People who speak in jargon as if Everyone Who Is Anyone will understand it, just plain annoy me!"

okay, this part,  i think i have a fuller understanding of what you are saying.  i have friends who are very well versed in the use of christian jargon, and it does seem that when they communicate with one another, there is understanding, although when i hear them use words like, 'jesus saves'.... it impresses me that he must have  experienced a computer crash, and has learned the value of saving important data...   (well, i was of course joking), but it may be a good example of 'jargon', seriously.  i've found myself in these irritating waters before... in my profession (dentistry), we do it too, as i'm sure that all 'groups' have their own vocabularies that are meaningful in limited ways to the small few who share and understand.  i'm not a psychologist, but have participated in jungian and laing groups for a few years, and i find myself wondering 'what on earth am i doing here'.  i have tried to read and understand enough that i can participate in certain conversations, but most of the time, i find the greatest value in taking in information, and giving it over (i think that is an act of surrender-to say 'i' don't know') and inviting my intuitive function (spirit/space) to return to me a fuller understanding....   

hoopoe said:  I agree-- sometimes all we need is to say Hello and share a smile, a wink, a bit of eye-contact, to acknowledge the resonance...  Letting the conversation happen on other levels of consciousness...

yes.  yes.  yes.  meeting a person on an elevator can be a holey-encounter... where in that brief instance a 'look' may be shared, or a simple 'hello' and both people emerge from the elevator.... changed.

[hoopoe]

Hi, Carol!  Language and communication-- fascinating topic!  I've heard that communication is to the spirit what food is to the body: essential nutrition for health and life!  What you say about the 'holy encounter' certainly points in that direction! 

Language is a tool for communication, not the communication itself.

Language is being created all the time-- every new word, every new usage expands it; every word forgotten or abandoned -- 'obsolete' and 'archaic,'  as English teachers probably still write on high-school poetry-- draws language up tighter. 

Jargon adds a set of specific vocabulary to one degree or another, but how sentences are put together--syntax-- is still the same, so I'd say that keeps jargon from being a whole new language, no matter how it sounds to those who don't know the vocabulary.

Language has to be consensual to be useful. 

I've heard that in the Berlitz family (a few years ago they established themselves as foreign language teachers on a grand scale) the adults who ran the business each specialized in a specific language.  When the first infant of the next generation came along they agreed it would be a fine thing for this child to grow up multi-lingual, so each one spoke only their specific language to him.

When he started talking, no one understood him.

Seems he concluded from what life presented him, that everyone has their own language.  So, he made up one to be his own.

Aside from certain poets who don't care if anyone understands them, language has to be consensual, in order to communicate.  If it fails to communicate, all it is, is sounds.

However, as British, American and Australian speakers of English can attest, and parents of teenagers, too, the same word in seemingly the same language can communicate totally different things. .  And on a subtler level, any conversation between two relatively independent sub-totalities    could still benefit communication-wise by some particular attention to defining of terms before tossing them around. 

If this were not the case, dispute-resolution mediators would have a lot less work to do! 

To talk about a new thing or an old thing in a new way, we need new terminology in order to escape familiar associations that can lead participants in the conversation in the wrong direction, or even shut off their thinking altogether. 

In a society that automatically sneers at anything called 'psychic,' practicing psychics have to find a way to introduce themselves so they will not be stoned or dismissed before they can share what 'psychic' means to them.  So-- we try to pin it down to other words that say more clearly what it is-- 'remote viewing' instead of 'clairvoyance' for example, or 'therapeutic touch,' instead of 'laying on of hands,' or 'animal magnetism' or 'aura healing' which are all terms that mean, or have meant exactly the same process and effect.

Carol, you said:  i have tried to read and understand enough that i can participate in certain conversations, but most of the time, i find the greatest value in taking in information, and giving it over (i think that is an act of surrender-to say 'i' don't know') and inviting my intuitive function (spirit/space) to return to me a fuller understanding....   

I agree, there is great value to just listening, and letting one's subconscious tools sort out the meanings, and apply them.  I've noticed that just a phrase can click, and light up a whole area of interest and understanding, even though it was not what the speaker was talking about.  A few years ago, I saw a book, and though it was years before I actually found out what was inside it, the title rang bells for me: it was a sort of 'connector piece' for a bunch of my bits of the Big Puzzle, or to use a different metaphor, it was a catalyst that precipitated a reaction.  The title was:  WHAT IF THE GOD IN ALL LIFE MATTERS?

[Carol Massey]

hi hoopoe,

thank you for your response.

i'm preparing for house guests, and it may be a few days before i can contribute to our ongoing conversation.  i will as soon as space allows.

i'll be thinking on the thoughts you've shared.

glad you've come here!   



 

[hoopoe]

Thanks, Carol!    Have a great time with your guests-- I look forward to continuing the conversation later. 
CL

[Carol Massey]

thank you hoopoe.  i'm still waiting their arrival, but should be soon.  i just wanted to take a moment to let you know that when i stop 'thinking'.... many thoughts come flowing in. 

pertinent ones to our conversation about 'communication', and as you suggest... the realization that language is a living thing, continually evolving new and creative ways to express ourselves.

some new ones, (relatively new) describing 'gnosis' that was once referred to as 'psychic' and therefore loaded with a generally accepted 'negativity' by western (christianized) society, are 1) extended bandwidth perception, 2) energy medicine/ balancing instead of reiki 3) thin-slicing, popularized in the recent best selling book, BLINK, rather than clarivoyant.

or gaining acceptance via familiarity with many is the notion of homeopathic healing.  but, again, if it is referred to as ancient chinese healing practices, or medicine...the acceptance becomes more questionable.

the other reason i came here was to 'bump' one of my favortie topics... that i thought you might enjoy reading also.  i haven't read all the topics, but this one, 'patterns within thought' was one that i participated in (as sort of a late-comer to the forum) with emile, who has already expressed so much of what i want to say regarding 'inclusionality'.... yet he has done it with such eloquence that as an introduction and explanation, my effort would be very lacking. 

so i'll just go now and give the topic a david peat, 'gentle-action' bump and you can decide for yourself.

talk you to soon, hoopoe....

CL -  M   

p.s.  i also want to say 'hello' to our new native american friends here in the forum.... and a big welcome. 


     

[hoopoe]

Hi, Carol!

Thanks for pointing out that particular topic.  I looked at it when I first arrived here, and dove in to discover right away that I was in over my head--  have not read the same resources, nor acquired the same vocabulary-- not even in other translatable terms--though I have long had ideas about thinking, consciousness and language. 

Reading some of the conversations a second time, I found myself not floundering quite so much, but still only getting a glimmer of the meanings intended.

Still, I am acquiring some new notions-- such as accoustical awareness/space, and the perceptual effects of it as compared to visual awareness/space.

In their ocean, dolphins have developed their large, highly convoluted brains, and through attempts to understand what kind of minds they have, we have attempted to create a connection with them through vocal language. 

We, being creatures of an intellect tied in with our fingers and opposable thumbs, and using our eyes as a primary channel of data-gathering, have to switch channels, and understand what it's like to use hearing as the primary channel, and to be limited to mostly our mouths to manipulate the world physically, to any degree of precision.

Human beings (at least those in city-building cultures) seem to always be fiddling with the world, making and changing, and planning to make and change.  We use our intellect to figure things out, to create explanations, to discover the logics and equations of the world we perceive. 

There is considerably more explanation in our world than actual understanding: our minds are set to take things apart, to analyze, to re-configure... 

So when we regard the big, complex brain of the dolphin-- larger(relative to body-size) and more convoluted than the human brain-- we have to wonder--What are they using it for?  They have been at their plateau of evolvement for a very long time--much longer than we fiddly primates!  And they have been in it with a consciousness based on sound rather than visuals-- a far greater zone of available information, in the ocean environment, where, for instance, whale-song carries for thousands of miles!

Perhaps they are better than we are at explicating the non-physical implicate order:  perhaps they are unfolding the subtleties of thought and 'gnosis' and emotion--  There is evidence that this is the case.

Monkey that I am, I will go out on a limb, and believe it!

[Carol Massey]

thank you for your message hoopoe. 

do you know about the mystery of the silver rings?  a beautiful story at the project delphi webpages.  here's it's location in cyberspace: 

http://www.earthtrust.org/delrings.html

when space opens a window, i'll return to our conversation...meanwhile, i'll be playing with my grand daughters, ages 1 and 3, and their silver rings....

sending you wishes for a good day....

  carol 

[hoopoe]

Hi, Carol-- No, I have not heard of the silver rings.  I will check it out.

Have a great time with your grandkids-- I have one of those, and I kinda like her, too!  She is 3 1/2 and is going to be In Charge one day.

[Carol Massey]

hi hoopoe,

thanks... the little girls have kept me very busy hugging, loving, kissing, coloring, and collecting money plant seeds they're taking back to idaho to watch grow.  it's been very hot here, so they've also been keeping a very close watch on the bird baths making sure the birds' swimming pools (they call them) are filled with water, watching the bluebirds come and go making nest for newbie blues.... and of course eating ice cream.  they're off now for a couple of days to visit other grand parents then will return for a short while before returning to their home in boise. 

so.... now i'm enjoying a bit of space to relax and allow my thoughts to return to our talking:

hoopoe, you said, 'In their ocean, dolphins have developed their large, highly convoluted brains, and through attempts to understand what kind of minds they have, we have attempted to create a connection with them through vocal language.'

and that got me to considering the effectiveness, or non, of vocal language when it is constructed and understood by our dominant way of understanding the world via left brain functioning, when our logic overrides our intuition.  in the case of john lilly and others who are attuned via resonance with dolphins and whales.... it seems to me that 'deep communication' is established in a way that engages arational mind, through which the researchers and the dolphins may share a common space that is accommodating and nurturing.  where language/communication is a natural consequence of engaging 'others' in a non-threatening way.  i don't think that language can evolve naturally if it remains predominantly in the bailiwick of logical mental constructions.  it may evolve as all things do, but not in a way that allows new meaning to naturally arise.  maybe this is transcendent function, wherein mind, communicating freely with itself, neither logic nor intuition condemning one another, but through mutual recognition and inclusion, 'brings forth out of the one, two, out of the two, three....', via an act of creation, restores the 'excluded middle' that we have been taught, enculturated, to believe is not a logical possibility.  it seems this way to me.   

do you recall reading about the dolphins which john lilly, early on in his work, kept in captivity?  i think there were three of them, and he decided that it would make observation and research easier if he kept them confined in a small area.  after a week, one of the dolphins stopped eating... and soon afterward it died...  the next week another one stopped eating and it, too, died.  this was very traumatic for him when he realized that these otherwise healthy dolphins were dying off rather than being kept in captivity.  he suffered a great deal of guilt and anguish as he truly loved the dolphins, but had not considered what effect his research plan would have on them.  that small insight, and his ability to 'feel' his emotions  brought about a shift in perception that permanently altered the way he conducted his research, resulting in a greater awareness of the quality of 'nurturing' that had been previously ignored.

of course this will, most likely, only be understood by those who feel the space they're included in, the earth, wind, fire and ice.... and therefore 'know' (via inner gnosis), it is full, sentient, and nurturing...alive.

here's a song for you hoopoe.... i heard it today for the very first time, and i thought what a perfect description of right relationship to a sentient, loving world.

Artist/Band: Carpenter Mary Chapin
Lyrics for Song: Sudden Gift Of Fate
Lyrics for Album: A Place In The World

Some people need to know what to expect
Need to keep control, need to keep one step
Ahead of every chance, as if chance decides
Who it's gonna pass, who it will reward
They don't understand, chances don't keep score
They just find us when we're there to find

And so this has to be, a sudden gift of fate
you're nothing less to me than a sudden gift of fate
It's not as if it comes down to your turn
that someone somewhere feels you've earned
You just learn to wait for sudden gifts of fate

Some people have never been the lonely kind
Never called a friend in the middle of the night
Just to hear a voice say it's okay
And now I hear you speak each and every word
That I didn't think lonely people heard
You took a long night and turned it into day

And so this has to be, a sudden gift of fate
you're nothing less to me than a sudden gift of fate
Its not as if it comes down to your turn
that someone somewhere feels you've earned
You just learn to wait for sudden gifts of fate

You can celebrate,
gifts are never late
You just learn to wait
for sudden gifts of fate